* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. [00:00:05] APPOINTED BY THE CITY COUNCIL. THERE ARE SEVEN REGULAR MEMBERS AND TWO ALTERNATES ON THE COMMISSION. TONIGHT WE HAVE, UH, UH, EIGHT MEMBERS IN ATTENDANCE. UH, SO WE WILL, UH, UM, MAKE SOME ASSIGNMENT FOR VOTING. UM, ONLY SEVEN MEMBERS CAN VOTE ON A PARTICULAR, ON AN ISSUE, UH, BUT ALL MEMBERS WILL, UH, PARTICIPATE IN THE DISCUSSIONS AND DELIBERATIONS. LACK, FOR LACK OF A BETTER, UH, PROCEDURE WILL GO ALPHABETICALLY. UH, MS. POINTER, IF YOU WILL, UH, VOTE ON THE MINUTES AND MR. PURDY, UH, ON THE, UH, UH, THE PUBLIC HEARING. ALRIGHT. UH, IN THE CASE OF AN ABSENCE OF A REGULAR MEMBER, A DESIGNATED ALTERNATE WILL VOTE. WE HAVE THAT TAKEN CARE OF. THIS MEETING IS A BUSINESS MEETING AND WILL BE CONDUCTED AS SUCH, UH, IN THAT REGARD. AS A COURTESY TO THOSE IN ATTENDANCE, PLEASE, UH, WE REQUEST THAT YOU, UH, UH, ADJUST ALL YOUR DEVICES, UH, THAT, UH, MIGHT INTERRUPT, UH, TO TURN THEM OFF OR ADJUST THEM SO THEY WON'T INTERRUPT. OUR PROCEEDINGS ARE RECORDED, SO PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS FOR THE RECORD WHEN ADDRESSING THE COMMISSION. SINCE WE DO HAVE A PUBLIC HEARING, I'LL READ THAT, UH, NARRATIVE. EACH PUBLIC HEARING IS PROCEEDED BY A STAFF INTRODUCTION TO THE REQUEST. THE APPLICANT IS THEN PERMITTED 15 MINUTES TO MAKE THEIR PRESENTATION TO THE COMMISSION, AND THEY MAY RESERVE ANY PORTION OF THAT TIME FOR A FINAL REBUTTAL. TIME SPENT IN ANSWERING QUESTIONS ASKED BY THE COMMISSION IS NOT COUNTED AGAINST THE APPLICANT. THOSE WISHING TO SPEAK IN FAVOR OR OPPOSITION TO THE REQUEST. REQUEST WILL ALSO BE GIVEN THREE MINUTES TO ADDRESS THE COMMISSION. IF THERE ARE ORGANIZED GROUPS AND ATTENDANCE, WE SUGGEST THAT YOU, UH, SELECT REPRESENTATIVES TO PRESENT YOUR OBJECTION. WE ARE INTERESTED IN GATHERING NEW AND RELEVANT INFORMATION, UH, NOT REPETITION. PLEASE ADDRESS ALL COMMENTS TO THE COMMISSION AND NOT TO MEMBERS OF THE AUDIENCE. AFTER A BRIEF REBUTTAL BY THE APPLICANT, THE HEARING WILL BE CLOSED AND NO FURTHER MEETING OR NO FURTHER TESTIMONY WILL BE PERMITTED. UM, WITH THAT, UH, WE'LL PROCEED TO THE MINUTES AND, UH, UH, ASK IF THERE ARE ANY ADDITIONS OR CORRECTIONS TO THE MINUTES. SEEING NONE, UH, I'LL ASK FOR, UH, ACTION ON THE MINUTES. I, I PROPOSE WE PASS THE MINUTES AS PRESENTED. I'LL SECOND. THANK YOU. OKAY. UH, UM, MOVEMENT FOR PASSING, UH, OR APPROVING [1. Approval of minutes of the regular business meeting of June 4, 2024.] THE MINUTES BY COMMISSIONER CONSTANTINO AND SECOND BY, SORRY, BY , BY MR. ROBERTS. UH, ALL IN FAVOR? OH, I'M SORRY. I'M SORRY. MR. BEACH . I KNOW WE LOOK LONG. NO, NO. . IT'S THE GRAY HAIR. YEAH. ALRIGHT. UM, ALL IN FAVOR? OPPOSED? UH, THAT PASSES. SEVEN ZERO. UH, WE'LL [2. ZF 24-08 Cityline East PD Amendment - A request to amend the development regulations of the 62.5-acre CityLine-East Planned Development PD to increase the number of residential units, and to modify the Regulating Plan to increase the acreage of Mandatory and Mandatory/Non-Mandatory Open Space. Owner: Walter Mountford, KDC. Staff: Sam Chavez.] GO ON TO THE PUBLIC HEARING AND ASK MR. CHAVEZ TO PRESENT. OH, AND ON THE PUBLIC HEARING, UM, ON THE AGENDA ITEM, IT'S, IT'S LABELED AS 24 0 8 RATHER THAN 24 11. IT IS 24 11, I BELIEVE, ISN'T IT? YES. YES, SIR. THAT'S CORRECT. OKAY. ALRIGHT. SO, ZONING FILE 24 DASH 11 IS A REQUEST FOR AN AMENDMENT TO THE CITY LINE EAST, UH, PLAN DEVELOPMENT DISTRICT. THE PROPERTY'S LOCATED BETWEEN CITY LINE DRIVE AND PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH HIGHWAY EAST OF PLANO ROAD. THE, THE, UH, SUBJECT SITE IS ZONED, UH, PD PLAN DEVELOPMENT DISTRICT UNDER ORDINANCE, UH, 40 49, AND IT ENCOMPASSES 62.5 ACRES IN, IN AREA. THE REQUEST TO IS TO AMEND THE PD TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF RESIDENTIAL UNITS AND TO AMEND THE REGULATING PLAN TO INCREASE THE ACREAGE OF THE MANDATORY CIVIC OPEN SPACE AND THE MANDATORY SLASH NON-MANDATORY, UH, CIVIC OPEN SPACE AREAS IN FRONT OF YOU IS, UH, THERE'S A FEW TABLES SHOWING YOU THE PROPOSED AMENDMENTS TO CITY LINE EAST. THE FIRST IS A TEXT AMENDMENT THAT WOULD INCREASE THE NUMBER [00:05:01] OF RESIDENTIAL UNITS FROM 1,925 UNITS TO 3,100 UNITS, AND THAT'S AN INCREASE OF 1,175 ADDITIONAL UNITS. AND THEN IT WOULD PROVIDE A MINIMUM DENSITY, UH, OF 60 UNITS TO THE ACRE FROM 30 UNITS TO THE ACRE. UH, STAFF DID REVIEW THE EXISTING DEVELOPMENTS ON WITHIN CITY LINE EAST AND FOUND ALL THE EXISTING RESIDENTIAL, UH, DEVELOPMENTS, UH, TO COMPLY WITH THE PROPOSED, UH, INCREASE IN DENSITY. UH, THE OTHER TWO AMENDMENTS ARE AMENDMENTS TO THE REGULATING PLAN. I'LL SHOW YOU THOSE SHORTLY. AND THEY ARE TO THE 100% MANDATORY CIVIC AND OPEN SPACE AREA REQUIREMENTS. UH, THE PROPOSAL IS INCREASE IT, UH, FROM 6.44 ACRES TO 6.6 ACRES. THAT'S AN, THAT'S AN INCREASE OF POINT 0.16 ACRES OF PROPERTY, OR ROUGHLY 6,970 SQUARE FEET. THE, THE SECOND AMENDMENT TO THE REGULATING PLAN, UH, RELATES TO THE 60% MANDATORY 40% MANDATORY REQUIREMENT FOR CIVIC OPEN SPACE AREA. UH, THEY INTEND TO GO FROM 3.44 ACRES, THE 4.64 ACRES FOR AN INCREASE OF 1.2 ACRES, OR ROUGHLY 52,272 SQUARE FEET. THE, UH, TABLE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE SLIDE THERE IS, IS JUST TO SHOW YOU A COMPARISON OR, OR REALLY A COMBINATION OF BOTH CITY LINE, WHICH IS ON THE, ON THE WEST SIDE OF, UH, PLANO ROAD, AND THEN CITY LINE EAST AS TO THE NUMBER OF ENTITLED RESIDENTIAL UNITS. UH, YOU CAN SEE THERE FOR CITY LINE, THE PROPERTY ON THE WEST SIDE OF PLANO, THEY'RE ENTITLED TO 2000. THEY'RE NOT MAKING ANY CHANGES TO, UH, TO THAT PD. UH, AND THEY'VE DEVELOPED, UH, OUT OF THOSE, UH, 2000 UNITS, THEY'VE DEVELOPED, UH, 1,369 UNITS. CITY LINE EAST, UH, IT'S GOING FROM 1925 TO 3,100, AND THEY'VE ONLY DEVELOPED 805 UNITS. YOU CAN SEE THE ESTIMATED, UH, POPULATION OR RES OR THE NUMBER OF RESIDENTS IN THOSE UNITS. UH, I APPLIED A 90% OCCUPANCY RATE TO THOSE, TO THOSE APARTMENTS OR TO THOSE, THOSE DEVELOPMENTS. IT COULD BE A LITTLE HIGH. UM, BUT THAT WAS THE INFORMATION I COULD GLEAN FROM, UH, FROM THE SOURCES I HAD. SO BASED ON THAT AND APPLYING A 1.68, UH, PEOPLE PER, PER UNIT RATE, UH, THAT AREA IS POPULATED WITH ABOUT, UH, ROUGHLY 3,270, UH, INDIVIDUALS. AND THE REASON I, I PLACED THAT INFORMATION IN THERE IN YOUR STAFF REPORT, UH, I GAVE YOU SOME, UH, MULTIFAMILY NUMBERS FOR WHAT I FEEL ARE CURRENTLY, UH, SUCCESSFUL MIXED USE DEVELOPMENTS. ONE OF 'EM IS, UH, LEGACY WEST, THE FOUR QUADRANTS OF LEGACY WEST. THERE'S ABOUT 5,000 UNITS IN THAT AREA ALREADY DEVELOPED. UH, AND THERE'S ROOM FOR MORE. UH, AND THEN I PROVIDED YOU, UH, DOWNTOWN PLANO. THERE'S ABOUT 24, 2500 UNITS THERE. AND THEN, UH, WATERS CREEK, WHICH IS OUT IN CAPELLE, UH, THE DALLAS AREA. AND THERE'S ABOUT 2,600 UNITS THERE WITH A LOT MORE UNDEVELOPED LAND. NOW, THE ONE POSITIVE THAT WE HAVE IS THAT WE'RE AT RAIL AS OPPO, AND WITH THE EXCEPTION OF, UH, LEGACY WEST AND WATER CREEK, UH, THAT AREN'T NEAR RAIL. UH, SO IT WOULD BE US IN PLANO. SO HERE IS THE, THE CURRENT REGULATING PLAN. AND I HIGHLIGHTED THE AREAS THERE LABELED AS A AND B TO SHOW YOU WHERE THAT ADDITIONAL, UH, OPEN SPACE, CIVIC OPEN SPACE WOULD COME FROM CD. SO THE APPLICANT'S INTENT WAS TO, WAS TO COMPLETE THIS KIND OF TRAIL SYSTEM OR, OR PEDESTRIAN PATHWAY, UH, THAT BISECTS THE PROPERTY. AND I'LL SHOW YOU ON THE PROPOSED, SO YOU CAN SEE WHERE THEY'VE FILLED IN THE GAP. SO THEY'VE COMPLETED THAT ENTIRE CORRIDOR, UH, AND IT WILL BE TREATED THE SAME. THE ONLY, THE ONLY OTHER MINOR MODIFICATION IS REALLY THE CHANGE IN THE LOCATION HERE OF THIS, UH, UH, SPECIAL DEVELOPMENT, UH, AREA. AND IT'S OPTIONAL AS FAR AS HOW THAT, THAT THAT AREA, UH, IS DEVELOPED. UH, IT, IT DOES NOT ALLOW ANY MULTIFAMILY UNITS WITHIN THE FIRST 30 FEET OF THAT BUILDING. SO IT'S A LINER, BUT IT'S A LINER FOR NON-RESIDENTIAL USES. SO THAT'S BEEN MODIFIED SLIGHTLY. IT'S MOVED, IT'S MOVED A LITTLE FURTHER NORTH. UH, SO YOU CAN SEE THAT NON-MANDATORY ROAD. SO YOU CAN ESSENTIALLY HAVE A MIXED USE DEVELOPMENT HERE THAT ABUTS THIS OPEN SPACE AND THAT WOULD CREATE THAT PUBLIC REALM THAT WE'RE, YOU KNOW, THAT, THAT WE'RE DEFINITELY, UH, ACHIEVING THROUGHOUT THE DEVELOPMENT, BOTH CITY LINE EAST AND CITY LINE. [00:10:02] SO TONIGHT, UM, THE, UH, THE COMMISSION MAY RECOMMEND APPROVAL OR THE REQUEST IS PRESENTED. UH, YOU CAN APPROVE IT WITH CONDITIONS OR AMEND CONDITIONS OR DENY THE REQUEST. UH, SHOULD YOU ACCEPT THE APPLICANT'S REQUEST AS PRESENTED, THE MOTION WOULD INCLUDE THAT THE MAXIMUM NUMBER OF RESIDENTIAL UNITS SHALL BE 3,100 CONSTRUCTED AT A MINIMUM DENSITY OF 60 UNITS THROUGH THE ACRE. AND THAT THE REGULATING PLAN, UH, IN YOUR PACKET SHALL, UH, AT AND AS SHOWN IN YOUR PACKET, SHALL INDICATE 6.6 ACRES OF 100% MANDATORY CIVIC OPEN SPACE AREA AND, AND 4.6 ACRES OF 60% MANDATORY, 40% NON-MANDATORY, UH, CIVIC OPEN SPACE AREA. UH, WITH THAT, THAT CONCLUDES MY PART OF THE PRESENTATION AND I KNOW THE APPLICANT HAS A REAL SHORT, UH, PRESENTATION TO GO. ALRIGHT, THANK YOU. ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS FOR STAFF? YES, SAM? UM, I WAS JUST THINKING ABOUT THE, UH, CASE FILE WE HEARD RECENTLY, UH, OVER ABOUT THE, UH, DEVELOPMENT. UM, IT'S NOT ACTUALLY UTD, BUT NEAR UTD. YES SIR. STUDENT HOUSING IN THAT ONE, IF I RECALL, THERE WAS A REQUIREMENT, UM, WASN'T THERE, UH, IN THE, UH, MOTION A CERTAIN REQUIREMENT FOR A PERCENTAGE OF RETAIL VERSUS RESIDENTIAL? UH, NO SIR. THERE WAS A PHASING, UH, ELEMENT THAT WAS IN THE ZONING THAT REQUIRED THINGS TO HAPPEN BEFORE COS COULD BE ISSUED FOR CERTAIN BUILDINGS. YES, THE HOTEL IS IT OKAY. IS A HOTEL AND, AND, AND, AND TWO STANDALONE RETAIL BUILDINGS. SO IN, IN, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY MY MEMORY IS NOT QUITE ON THAT, BUT HAS THERE BEEN IN ANY OF THESE OTHER FILES TO YOUR RECOLLEC RECOLLECTION, A REQUIREMENT OF, UH, RETAIL VERSUS RESIDENTIAL OR ANY KIND OF RATIOS ON THAT? NO, SIR. OKAY. YEAH, BOTH OF THESE CODES ARE REALLY FORM-BASED CODES. SO WE LET THE MARKET DICTATE WHAT, WHAT IS, WHAT IS NEEDED BASED ON POPULATION, UM, ON POPULATION TRENDS WITHIN THE AREA. SO WE, WE LET THE MARKET DICTATE THE, THE USE THAT'S NECESSARY TO SUPPORT. ALRIGHT. THANK YOU. YES, MR. PURDY. UM, SAM, CAN YOU GO BACK TO THE, UH, PRIOR SLIDE WITH THE REQUEST SUMMARY AND THE, UM, GUIDANCE PROVIDED AROUND THAT MINIMUM DIS DENSITY? IS THERE A MAXIMUM DENSITY RECOMMENDATION AS WELL, OR IS IT JUST THE 60 UNITS PER ACRE? ON THE REQUEST SUMMARY SLIDE THAT WE SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT? THE CURRENT MINIMUM DENSITY IS 30 UNITS TO THE ACRE. SO WITH THIS AMENDMENT, THE APPLICANT IS PROPOSING A MINIMUM DENSITY OF 60 UNITS TO THE ACRE. UH, AGAIN, THIS IS A FORM-BASED CODE, SO WE TEND TO DENSIFY THESE AREAS IN ORDER. SO IN ORDER THAT WE CREATE ENOUGH SYNERGY WITHIN THAT DEVELOPMENT TO SUPPORT THIS MIXED USE TOD ENVIRONMENT. UH, SO WE'VE ALWAYS PLACED A MINIMUM DENSITY, BUT WE'VE NEVER PLACED A MAXIMUM DENSITY. SAM, UH, HAS, HAVE Y'ALL RECEIVED ANY COMMENTARY FROM ANYBODY ON THIS? THERE IS ONE, UH, PIECE OF CORRESPONDENCE IN YOUR PACKET, UH, BUT WE HAVEN'T RECEIVED ANYTHING OTHER THAN, THAN THAT ONE PIECE. ALRIGHT. ANY OTHER YES, MR. ILLA. SO, UM, IS THE REASON THAT KIND OF, YOU DON'T TIE THE DEVELOPER TO THE RETAIL OR ANY OF THAT, IS IT BECAUSE YOU WANT THE, OR YOUR EXPERTISE? IS IT BECAUSE YOU WANT THE, THE, THE BEDS AND THE PEOPLE THERE BEFORE YOU BUILD THE RETAIL? IS THAT GENERALLY WHY YOU'RE NOT FORCING THAT ISSUE? WE TRY NOT TO PLACE A LIMITATION THAT WOULD HINDER THEIR ABILITY TO MEET MARKET DEMANDS AND THEN THAT'S REALLY THE REAL REASON. ANY OTHERS? ARE THERE ANY, UH, DEVELOPMENTS THAT YOU'RE AWARE OF THAT GO ABOVE THE 60 PER ACRE? I KNOW ALL, ALL THESE THREE DEVELOPMENTS ARE ABOVE 60 AND CITY ACRE. SO THEY'RE, THEY'RE DENSIFYING THEIR DEVELOPMENT, THESE ARE ON ABOUT TWO AND A HALF TO MAYBE JUST SHORT OF THREE ACRES IN SIZE. SO, SO THEY'RE DEFINITELY, UH, DENSIFYING THEIR DEVELOPMENTS IN ORDER TO SUPPORT [00:15:01] OR TO TRY TO SUPPORT THE AMOUNT OF RETAIL THAT'S ON THESE GROUND FLOORS. ALRIGHT, THANK YOU. JUST OUTTA CURIOSITY, HOW MANY STORIES TO ALL OF THESE UNITS? I BELIEVE THESE ARE ALL FIVE STORIES. FIVE, FIVE STORY. THANK YOU. NOW, THE REGULATING PLAN, OF COURSE, UH, LET'S SEE IF I CAN GET THERE, WILL ALLOW UP TO A MAXIMUM OF 350 FEET AND HEIGHT IN THE TOD CORE AND 225 IN THE TOD MIXED. NOW THIS IS WHERE THE CITY LINE MARKET CENTER IS JUST SOUTH OF CITY LINE. SO THAT'S THE OTHER REASON IT IS TRYING TO POPULATE THE AREA TO SUPPORT THE EXISTING RETAIL THAT'S THERE FOR SAM. CAN YOU DISCUSS, UH, IN YOUR REPRESENTATIVE COMP LOCATIONS, LEGACY WEST CYPRESS WATERS AND DOWNTOWN PLANO, UH, THE EXISTING RETAIL THAT WAS THERE PRIOR TO, I KNOW CYPRESS WATERS HASN'T BEEN FULLY BUILT OUT, BUT CORRECT. WHAT VERSUS AND, AND POSSIBLY EITHER COMPARE THAT TO, TO THE EXISTING RETAIL WE HAVE HERE. I DIDN'T DO THAT, THAT COMPARISON BECAUSE IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE OKAY. TO FIGURE OUT THE AMOUNT OF RETAIL IN THOSE AREAS. I, I JUST KNOW THE LEGACY HAD RETAIL FIRST CYPRESS WATERS HAS RESTAURANTS AND A CORRECT ENTERTAINMENT VENUE IN DOWNTOWN PLANO HAD A STREET THAT COULD BE POTENTIALLY A CENTER POINT. CORRECT. OKAY. YES, THAT'S WHAT I USED AS MY, IS THERE A COMPARABLE, THAT'S MY FOCUS POINT. IS THERE A COMPARABLE TO E EITHER OF THOSE THREE THINGS IN THIS AREA? THE CLOSEST ONE WOULD PROBABLY BE, IT WOULD, IT WOULDN'T BE CYPRESS WATERS, IT WOULDN'T BE LEGACY WEST. AND REALLY WHAT I'M LOOKING AT IS MORE OF A TOD AREA. AND THE, AND THE NEAREST ONE WOULD PROBABLY BE DOWNTOWN POINT OH, DOWNTOWN POINT, UH, OKAY. DO WHAT, WHAT'S AT THIS SITE THAT MIGHT BE THE EQUIVALENT OF IN EITHER OF THOSE, ANY OF THOSE RETAIL THAT WAS AT THE OTHER THREE? ANYTHING WHAT THE, THE WHOLE FOODS AND PROBABLY THE WHOLE FOODS. UH, THIS AREA HERE, UH, THERE'S ALSO, UH, RESTAURANTS ALONG STATE STREET HERE. OKAY. ON THE GROUND FLOOR ON BOTH SIDES OF STATE STREET. OKAY. AND THEN OF COURSE THESE UNITS ALSO HAVE THEM AS WELL. OKAY. UH, BUT NOT SHOPPING OR ENTERTAINMENT OR, MM-HMM. NO. OKAY. ALRIGHT. NOW THE ONE BIG DIFFERENCE IS OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT A CITY LINE, WHICH IS ON THE, UH, YEAH. WEST SIDE OF PLANET. WE'RE TRADE. IT HAS, UH, HOTELS HERE AND A LITTLE FURTHER TO THE, A LITTLE FURTHER TO THE EAST. THAT MAKES SENSE. AND IT HAS SOME MIX. IT HAS, I BELIEVE, TOWN HOMES ALONG, UH, RENTER JUST ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE RAILROAD. OKAY. AND THE PLUS HERE IS THE ACCESS TO TRANSIT? CORRECT. OKAY. SAM, WHAT HAS THE DISCUSSION BEEN, UH, REGARDING THE BUILD SCHEDULE? WHAT'S THE TIMING THAT'S BEEN DISCUSSED? WE HAVEN'T HAD THAT DISCUSSION. OKAY. THANK YOU. SAM, I HAD A QUESTION ABOUT THE, UH, THE NUMBER OF UNITS VERSUS THE, THE DENSITY, UM, PART OF THIS, UM, WITH THE, UM, THE, THE DENSITY AND I'M, I'M UNDERSTANDING YOU TO SAY THAT THE WAY, UM, IT'S APPROVED, UH, WITH THE 30, UH, UNITS PER ACRE, I MEAN, THEY, THEY COULD INCREASE THE NUMBER OF UNITS, BUT IS THERE A SPECIFIC LIMITATION AS TO THE NUMBER OF UNITS SEPARATE AND APART FROM THE DENSITY QUESTION? DO YOU SEE WHAT I'M ASKING? YES. SO THE MAXIMUM NUMBER OF UNITS THAT, THAT THEY COULD DEVELOPED, THEY COULD, THAT THEY COULD DEVELOP TODAY, UH, THEY WOULD BE RESTRICTED TO A TOTAL OF 1,925 UNITS. SO THEY CAN'T EXCEED THAT NUMBER, BUT THEY ALSO HAVE TO MEET THE MINIMUM, UH, 30 UNITS TO, UH, TO THE ACRE. SO IT MAY BE THAT MAYBE ANOTHER TWO DEVELOPMENTS WIPE OUT THE TOTAL NUMBER OF UNITS THAT ARE, THAT ARE CURRENTLY PERMITTED, UH, ON, UH, WITHIN CITY LINE EAST. OKAY. ALRIGHT. THANK YOU. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? THANK YOU. ALRIGHT. SO, UH, THIS IS A PUBLIC HEARING. UH, WE'LL INVITE THE APPLICANT TO, UH, COME SPEAK TO US. ADDRESS US. YES. [00:20:01] OH, AND PLEASE, UH, MENTION YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS FOR THE RECORD. ABSOLUTELY. MY NAME IS WALT MOUNTFORD AND I LIVE AT 5 1 3 2 HORSESHOE TRAIL IN DALLAS, TEXAS. UM, I, I PUT THIS SLIDE UP HERE BECAUSE I, WE HAVE NOT BEEN BEFORE A BOARD FOR ANY TYPE OF APPROVAL IN MANY, MANY YEARS. I ACTUALLY HAVE, HAVE BEEN WITH THE PROJECT SINCE IT STARTED IN, IN, IN, UH, DECEMBER OF 2012. UH, AND, UH, THESE ARE SOME OF THE PROJECTS WE DEVELOPED IN YOUR CITY. YOU PROBABLY DRIVE BY 'EM ALL THE DAY ALL THE TIME, BUT, BUT CLEARLY, UM, LET ME JUST CLEARLY, THE, THE PROJECT THAT WE'RE MOST PROUD OF, AND, AND I, I WOULD, I WOULD SAY PROBABLY, UM, HA HAVE REALLY FOCUSED ON CREATING OTHER DEVELOPMENTS THAT ARE SIMILAR IS CITYLINE. AND, AND, AND, AND TRUTHFULLY, I THINK WE'VE TURNED, IT'S TURNED OUT REALLY, REALLY WELL. AND, AND I'M GONNA EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY IT IS THAT WE'RE REQUESTING WHAT WE'RE REQUESTING IN ORDER TO KIND OF PERPETUATE THAT SUCCESS. UM, WE AT ONE TIME HAD A LOT OF OFFICE SPACE PLANNED ON THIS PROJECT. OKAY. THAT WAS BASICALLY THE, THE, THE, THE, THE FORMULA THAT WE WERE GONNA DO. IF YOU CAN IMAGINE THIS, IF YOU WERE TO TAKE STATE FARM BUILDINGS AND CONTINUE THEM EAST ALONG TO THE GEORGE BUSH TURNPIKE, WE WERE GONNA BACK UP PARKING LOTS, PARKING STRUCTURES TO THEM. WE WERE GONNA HAVE INWARD FACING, UH, OFFICE BUILDINGS. AND THEN WE WOULD, WE WOULD COMPLETE THE DEVELOPMENT WITH, WITH MULTIFAMILY. UNFORTUNATELY, THE PANDEMIC HIT OKAY. AND, AND WORK FROM YOUR HOME WAS NOT ONLY A, A GLOBAL EXPERIMENT, IT WAS A, IT WAS AN UNBELIEVABLE SUCCESS. EVERYBODY LIKED, LIKED WORKING FROM THEIR HOUSE. AND SO, AS A CONSEQUENCE, THE FUTURE OF OFFICE BUILDINGS IS, IS VERY LIMITED. WE ARE IN, WE, MEANING KDC IS PRIMARILY AN OFFICE DEVELOPER. WE'RE, WE'RE BASICALLY A CORPORATE CUSTOM HOME BUILDER. WE'VE DONE TOYOTA, NORTH AMERICAN HEADQUARTERS, JP MORGAN CHASE, YOU KNOW, THE LIST GOES ON, ON, UH, STATE FARM IN THIS, IN THIS INSTANCE. AND, AND I CAN TELL YOU I'VE NEVER SEEN THE FINANCIAL MARKETS IN SUCH DISHEVELED CONDITION. AND, AND IT'S BECAUSE OF TWO FACTORS. ONE IS ESSENTIALLY USERS COMPANIES DON'T KNOW WHEN THEIR EMPLOYEES ARE GONNA COME BACK TO WORK. THEY DON'T KNOW IF THEY ARE GONNA COME, COME BACK TO WORK. I MEAN, MEANING INTO THE OFFICE. AND, AND THE, AND THE SECOND THING IS, IS OFFICE BUILDINGS HAVE, HAVE ESSENTIALLY BEEN RED LINED BY THE BANKS. NONE OF THE BANKS WANT ANY ADDITIONAL OFFICE BUILDINGS ON THEIR BOOKS RELATIVE TO CONSTRUCTION LOANS. AND SO YOU'RE GONNA SEE, YOU MAY SEE A CRANE IN THE AIR HERE AND THERE. WE ACTUALLY HAVE A DEVELOPMENT IN LAS COLINAS THAT WE'RE BUILDING FOR WELLS FARGO, WHICH IS AN 800,000 SQUARE FOOT PROJECT, BUT FINANCED BY THE USER. WELL, WELLS FARGO IS BASICALLY JUST WRITING THE CHECKS. SO IT'S NOT REALLY A MARKET, KIND OF A MARKET TRANSACTION FROM THE STANDPOINT OF, OF CLASSIC LEVERAGE AND, AND, AND FINANCING. UH, SO WHAT, WHAT WHAT IS TROUBLING US THE MOST IS BASICALLY THIS SCENARIO IN ORDER FOR US TO ATTRACT INVESTMENT, IN ORDER US TO ATTRACT DEVELOPERS TO DO RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENTS. 'CAUSE WE DON'T DO RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENTS. WE'VE JOINT VENTURED WITH ALMOST EVERY PRODUCT TYPE THAT WE'VE DONE AT, AT, AT, UM, AT, AT, UH, CITYLINE. BUT WE'VE RETAINED SOME OF THE BEST AND BIAS THAT WE HAVE IN THAT FIELD FOR DOING THOSE THINGS. JLB DID ALL, ALL OF OUR MULTIFAMILY, UH, UH, REGENCY CENTERS, DID THE WHOLE FOODS AND, AND, AND THE CVS CENTER. AND AS A CONSEQUENCE, WE'RE LEFT WITH A SITUATION WHERE WE HAVE TOO MUCH OFFICE ZONING. AND, AND THE KIND OF THE WAY OUR, OUR OUR PD WORKS IS THAT IT'S A FORM-BASED ZONING CODE, RIGHT? SO WE CAN LITERALLY PUT ANY, ANY TYPE OF USE ANYWHERE WE WANT, AS LONG AS WE ADHERE TO THE DENSITIES AND THE, AND THE, AND THE SETBACKS AND THE STREET SCAPE, UH, CONSTRAINTS THAT ARE WITHIN THE T THE, THE TOD ZONING THAT, THAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE. AND WE CAN GO UP TO ABOUT 2 MILLION SQUARE FEET OF, OF OFFICE RIGHT NOW, I MEAN, BASED ON, IT'S ACTUALLY TWO AND A HALF MILLION SQUARE FEET, BUT WE'VE GOT ABOUT A HALF A MILLION SQUARE FEET DEVELOPED IN, IN FOUR CITY LINE. AND SO IT LEAVES US ABOUT 2 MILLION SQUARE FEET. AND THEN, THEN WE HAVE THE, THE REST OF THE RESIDENTIAL UNITS THAT WE HAVE, RIGHT? BUT THE REST, THE REST OF THE RESIDENTIAL UNITS DOESN'T TAKE US THROUGH TO A COMPLETED DEVELOPMENT SCENARIO. AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT WE'RE FOCUSING ON, IS TRYING TO GET TO A VIABLE, COMPLETED DEVELOPMENT SCENARIO SO THAT WE CAN TALK TO OTHER DEVELOPERS AND GUARANTEE THEM ESSENTIALLY THAT THERE'S NOT GONNA BE A HUGE OPEN FIELD OUT THERE WITH NO, WITH NO ENTITLEMENTS. IN OTHER WORDS, THE, THE DEVELOPMENT IS GONNA BE COMPLETED. NOW, CLEARLY WE WOULD, WE WOULD RATHER DEVELOP OFFICE BUILDINGS THAN RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT. WE, WE MAKE A LOT MORE MONEY ON OFFICE BUILDINGS, BUT RIGHT NOW THERE ISN'T EVEN ANYTHING ON THE HORIZON THAT WOULD MAKE YOU SUSPECT THAT THERE'S AN, THERE'S AN OFFICE DEMAND OUT THERE. AND SO AS A CONSEQUENCE, WE'RE, WE'RE, WE'RE SEEKING AN OPPORTUNITY TO, TO, TO VALIDATE THE PROJECT BY CONTINUING TO PUT HEADS ON, HEADS ON BEDS AT UC UH, EXCUSE ME, AT AT CITYLINE WHEN I MEAN HEADS ON BEDS, I MEAN, PEOPLE [00:25:01] LITERALLY THAT WAKE UP THERE EVERY DAY, RIGHT? AND THEY'RE, THEY'RE MORE APT TO SERVICE AND, AND, AND TO, AND TO BE A PATRON OF THE RETAIL THAN ANYBODY, RIGHT? PEOPLE, PEOPLE DRIVE IN FOR THE, FOR THE WHOLE FOODS. AND THAT'S A PARTICULAR ORIENTED CENTER. BUT ALL OF OUR, BUT ALL OF OUR SHOPS AROUND, UH, ALONG STATE FARM, EXCUSE ME, ALONG STATE STREET, ARE, ARE ALL INDIVIDUAL KIND OF MOM AND POPS FERNANDO'S AND GOOD UNION AND THOSE, AND THOSE TYPE OF FOLKS. AND, AND THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT THAT, KIND OF A SAD THING ABOUT THE, THE, THE, UH, STATE STREET RETAIL IS THAT 40,000 SQUARE FEET OF THAT RETAIL, 'CAUSE YOU WERE QUESTIONING RETAIL EARLIER, 40,000 SQUARE FEET OF THAT RETAIL HAS NEVER BEEN OCCUPIED, STILL IN A SHELL CONDITION FROM WHAT, FROM WHEN IT WAS CONSTRUCTED. AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE HERE ABOUT. WE NEED TO SUPPORT THE RETAIL. AND YOU'LL SEE A LETTER IN YOUR PACKET FROM THE, THE, THE, THE INDIVIDUAL THAT REPRESENTS THE COMPANY, THAT OWNS THE FOUR OFFICE BUILDINGS AND ALL THE RETAIL ON STATE STREET. WE DO NOT OWN THOSE, THOSE OFFICE BUILDINGS, NOR THAT RETAIL ANY LONGER. BUT WE'RE IN A POSITION TO ULTIMATELY GET THE CHANGES TO THE REST OF THE ZONING THAT THAT WILL HELP, THAT WILL HELP HIM. AND IF YOU READ THAT LETTER CLEARLY, I, I THINK HE THINKS IT'S, IT'S GONNA BE SOMETHING THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR HIM. ANOTHER THING THAT'S THAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT REAL ESTATE AND ITS DYNAMICS IS THAT YOU CAN USE, YOU CAN LOSE RETAIL REALLY QUICKLY, AND IT'S EXTREMELY HARD TO BRING BACK, RIGHT? IF THIS, IF THIS PLACE STARTS TO GO DARK BECAUSE PEOPLE CAN'T MAKE ENOUGH MONEY BEING THE RETAILERS AND, AND, AND SHOPS START TO CLOSE DOWN, IT'S JUST A, IT'S A CASCADING EFFECT. AND, AND WE JUST ABSOLUTELY CANNOT LET THAT HAPPEN. I'VE HAD CONVERSATIONS WW WITH, UH, WITH THIS GENTLEMAN AND, AND HE'S IN FULLY SUP FULL SUPPORT OF THAT. 'CAUSE IF, IF THE, IF THE, IF THE PART, IF THE PROJECT GOES DARK BECAUSE OF RETAIL AND THERE'S NO STATE FARM IN THE OFFICES OFFICE BUILDINGS, WE'RE GONNA, WE'RE GONNA BE IN A HUGE PROBLEM. SO WHAT WE, WHAT WE DID WAS NOT TO, YOU KNOW, BELABOR THE POINT, BUT WE TOOK THE, THE VACANT, THE AREA THAT YOU SAW, WE, WE BASICALLY GRIDDED IT WITH STREETS. TOOK THAT, TOOK THAT SQUARE FOOTAGE OUT OF THE PROJECT, LOOKED AT THE REST OF THE SQUARE FOOTAGE, MULTIPLIED IT BY 90 UNITS PER ACRE TO GET TO A TOTAL, A TOTAL BUILD OUT NUMBER OF 5,100 UNITS. NOW, AGAIN, WE DIDN'T TAKE ANY SQUARE FOOTAGE AWAY FROM THE OFFICE O OPPORTUNITY, RIGHT? OFFICE COULD STILL BE DEVELOPED. AND IN FACT, WE'VE GOT ABOUT A 400,000 SQUARE FOOT OFFICE BUILDING PLANNED IN ADDITION TO THE 5,100 UNITS, HOPING AT SOME POINT AND SOME DAY THE OFFICE, THE OFFICE MARKET MAY COME BACK. AND THAT WOULD BE A GREAT LOCATION FOR THEM. 'CAUSE AGAIN, I DON'T THINK THAT THERE'S A FUNDAMENTAL SHIFT FROM THE WALKABILITY ASPECT OF REAL ESTATE AND THE PREFERENCE TO HAVE THINGS WITHIN, WITHIN CLOSE PROXIMITY. AND, AND, AND ULTIMATELY THE ACCESS AND, AND THE PROXIMITY TO THE DART LIGHT REAL STATION IS A TRUE BENEFIT TO US AS WELL. SO, UH, IT, IT'S, WHAT WE'RE, WHAT WE'RE ESSENTIALLY ASKING YOU IS IF YOU WERE TO APPROVE THIS, WE WOULD HAVE 5,100 UNITS THAT WE COULD BUILD. OKAY? AND THAT WOULD BE ADDING 1,175 UNITS OR ABOUT 23% OF THE TOTAL. SO BASICALLY WHAT WE'RE ASKING FOR IS, WE HAVE THREE UNITS, AND FOR EVERY THREE UNITS, WE WANT A FOURTH U WE WOULD LIKE A FOURTH UNIT. AND WITH THAT FOURTH UNIT, WE'LL BE ABLE TO COMPLETE THE, THE PLAN DEVELOPMENT A VIABLE BUILD OUT OF THE REST OF THE PROPERTY, AND BE ABLE TO GET IN INVESTORS AND BUILDERS INTO THE, INTO THE PROJECT TO CONTINUE THE, THE MOMENTUM THAT WE'VE GAINED AND TO HELP THE RETAIL OUT. 'CAUSE 'CAUSE THE RETAIL NECESSARILY NEEDS HELP. IF YOU'VE GOT 40,000 SQUARE FEET THAT HAS NEVER EVEN BEEN OCCUPIED AT THIS POINT IN TIME. UH, I'M GONNA TAKE A BREAK HERE JUST BECAUSE I KNOW I MISSED SOMETHING IN MY, IN MY MONOLOGUE, BUT, UM, THE GOOD THING THAT WE HAVE GOING FOR US, WHEN YOU LOOK AT A TOTAL FINAL TOTAL BUILD OUT PLAN IS WE DO HAVE WHOLE FOODS. WE DO HAVE CVS, WE DO HAVE ALL THESE RESTAURANTS. WE HAVE LIKE 26 RESTAURANTS BOTH IN, ON STATE STREET AND, UH, AND THE MARKETPLACE, RIGHT? SO, SO, AND ANY RECENT RETAIL OF THAT KIND, PARTICULARLY URBAN RETAIL, WHICH IS AT THE BASE OF OFFICE BUILDINGS, IS GONNA BE PRIMARILY RESTAURANT OR SOME TYPE OF FOOD OR CONSUMPTION, UH, UH, ESTABLISHMENT. IT'S NOT, IT'S NOT GOING TO BE, UH, YOU KNOW, CLOTHING OR IT'S NOT GONNA BE A, A, A, A LEGACY WEST, RIGHT? LEGACY WEST IS A VERY PARTICULAR, UH, CLIENTELE, IF YOU WILL. AND, AND, AND WE'RE NOT LOOKING TO REPLICATE THAT, THAT WE'RE, WE'RE LOOKING TO JUST BASICALLY TO PROMOTE, UH, THE, THE, THE, THE, THE COMPANIES AND THE BUSINESSES THAT WE HAVE ON BOARD. ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS IS, THAT'S INTERESTING, AND IT'S BEEN A RELATIVELY, IT'S SOMEWHAT OF A NEGATIVE TOWARD, TOWARDS US SINCE THE PANDEMIC AS WELL. AND I, I FOUND THE STATISTIC [00:30:01] UNBELIEVABLE IF I HADN'T ACTUALLY RESEARCHED IT MYSELF AT DART, YOU CAN GO INTO DART IN SOME DEEP LAYERS. AND IN, IN 2019, THERE WAS A RIDERSHIP ASSOCIATED WITH THE CITY LINE BUSH STATION. AND THEN, AND NOW THERE'S A, THERE'S A RIDERSHIP ASSOCIATED WITH IT IN 2024. THE 2024 LEVELS OF RIDERSHIP ARE 50% OF WHAT IT WAS BEFORE COVID HAPPENED. LITERALLY CUT IN HALF. OKAY? AND I THINK THAT'S A WHOLE NOTHER REASON WHY ADDITIONAL RESIDENTIAL, ADDITIONAL HEADS ON BEDS HERE WILL HELP PEOPLE GET, GET ATTRACTED TO THIS AREA. WE'VE GOT THE SILVER LINE COMING IN, WHICH I THINK IS A FAN, IS GONNA BE A FANTASTIC OPPORTUNITY FOR US, FOR US AND OUR, OUR RESIDENTS TO REACH OUT TO, TO, UH, A DFW AND, AND, AND GET THERE FAIRLY QUICKLY AND EFFORTLESSLY. AND I THINK IT'S GONNA BE A REAL BIG BENEFIT TO US. CLEARLY THE ACCESS TO THE UNIVERSITY IS GONNA BE GONNA BE NICE FOR US AS WELL. UH, THE OTHER, THE OTHER THING THAT WE'RE ASKING FOR, WHICH, WHICH THERE WAS A LITTLE BIT OF CONFUSION ON, BUT, BUT I'M, I'M HAPPY TO, TO RESPOND TO THIS. WE'RE REQUESTING THAT THE MINIMUM DENSITY GET RAISED FROM 30 UNITS AN ACRE TO 60 UNITS AN ACRE. THE REASON WHY WE DID THAT WAS BECAUSE WE DIDN'T WANT TO SELL THIS PROPERTY TO SOMEONE AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN HAVE THEM CHANGE THEIR MIND AND PUT UP A WOODY WALK UP. THAT'S TWO OR THREE STORIES RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF WHAT WE'RE CREATING AS A DENSE, URBAN, PEDESTRIAN ORIENTED EXPERIENCE. WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO MAINTAIN THE DENSITY TO, TO MAINTAIN THE, THE, THE EXPERIENCE AND, AND EVERYTHING THAT WE BASICALLY CREATED THERE. UM, AND SO THAT'S THE REASON FOR THE 60 MINIMUM. IN ACTUALITY, A RELATIVELY CLEAN FIVE STORY WRAPPED PRODUCT YIELDS ABOUT 92 UNITS AN ACRE. OKAY? I, I MENTIONED TO YOU THAT IT WAS 90 UNITS AN ACRE, WHICH IS WHAT WE USED TO GET TO THE 5,100. SOME, SOME DEVELOPMENTS, SOME WRAP PRODUCT AREN'T THAT DENSE. AND THE REASON WHY THEY ARE IS 'CAUSE THEY, THEY MAY HAVE RETAIL AT THE GROUND FLOOR IF YOU HAVE RETAIL AT THE GROUND FLOOR, RIGHT? IT TAKES AWAY FROM THE NUMBER OF UNITS THAT YOU WOULD HAVE. YOU, YOU MIGHT HAVE SOME OTHER, SOME OTHER DYNAMICS GOING ON. SITEWISE, IF ALL THOSE, ALL THOSE PROPERTIES THAT ARE ADJACENT TO PLANO ROAD HAVE A HIGH, HAVE A HIGH, UH, PRESSURE GAS EASEMENT THAT GOES RIGHT ALONG THE, THE ROAD. AND SO THOSE BUILDINGS ARE REALLY SET BACK, THAT ALL CUTS OUT, CUTS DOWN IN YOUR EFFICIENCY. SO WE THOUGHT 60 WAS THE RIGHT NUMBER TO HOLD SOMEBODY'S FEET TO THE FIRE TO AT LEAST BE DENSE. AND, AND, AND TRUST ME, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY IS GONNA DEVELOP A PROJECT UNLESS IT'S AS DENSE AS IT CAN BE. BUT, BUT AGAIN, YOU COULD ALSO HAVE SOME TRENDS THAT MOVED AWAY FROM THE, FROM THE CURRENT OR THE, OR THE, FOR THE LAST 15 YEAR TREND OF UNITS BECOMING SMALLER. YOU MIGHT SEE THAT, YOU MIGHT SEE THAT TREND GROW AS WELL. MEANING UNITS BECOME BIGGER. IF UNITS BECOME BIGGER, THEN THE NUMBER OF UNITS PER ACRE GOES DOWN. RIGHT? ANYWAY, LONG STORY, 60% IS A REALLY GOOD SAFE NUMBER FOR US. IT PRESERVES OUR DENSITY. IT'LL, IT ALLOWS US THE FLEXIBILITY TO DO SOME THINGS THAT WE NEED TO DO. UH, AND THEN FINALLY, UH, IF THIS WERE TO TAKE PLACE AND WE WERE TO ACTUALLY DEVELOP THE UNITS, WE NEEDED TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF A DIFFERENT PLAN THAN WHAT WE HAD THAT WE HAD BEFORE. AS I INDICATED ALONG HERE IS, IS, IS THE PARKING WAS FACING THE FRONTAGE ROAD AND THE OFFICE BUILDINGS WERE, WERE COMING IN INSIDE. UH, AND, AND THEY HAVE BEEN FOCUSING INTERNALLY, RIGHT? BUT IF WE'RE GONNA MARCH DOWN THIS WAY TOWARDS THE EAST, I WANTED TO HAVE SOME MORE GREEN SPACE SO THAT, THAT WE COULD CONNECT IT AND, AND THE UNITS COULD BE A LITTLE BIT MORE INWARD, INWARD FOCUSED INTO A, YOU KNOW, KIND OF AROUND A, A NEIGHBORHOOD GREEN. AND THEN THERE WOULD BE THIS CONNECTION TO FOX CREEK PARK THAT WE WOULD HAVE AND, AND EXTENDING THAT. SO I THINK THERE WAS NECESSARILY A NEED TO INCREASE THE, THE AMOUNT OF OPEN SPACE BASED ON THE FACT THAT WE WERE INCREASING THE AMOUNT OF UNITS, BUT ALSO BECAUSE THE FUNCTIONALITY AND THE DESIGN HAD REALLY KIND OF CHANGED. AND, AND SO, SO THAT'S THE OTHER REASON FOR, FOR THE, FOR THE AMENDMENT THAT WE'RE ASKING FOR. UH, THAT IS ALL I REALLY HAVE TO SAY. UH, BUT I'D BE HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE. I'VE, I'VE BEEN HERE A WHILE. SURE. SO, THANK YOU, UH, UH, FOR YOUR PRESENTATION. UH, I DO HAVE ONE QUESTION. YOU, YOU MENTIONED YOU STILL HAVE ROUGHLY 2 MILLION, UH, SQUARE FEET ENTITLEMENT FOR, FOR OFFICE. CORRECT. UM, WHAT IS YOUR LEVEL OF, OF COMMITMENT TO THAT, TO BUILDING THAT? I KNOW THAT IT'S, IT'S, UH, IT IT, IT'S NOT SO MUCH IN DEMAND RIGHT NOW, RIGHT? AND THEN, AND UNTIL IT COMES BACK INTO DEMAND, I, I DON'T THINK WE HAVE ANY INTENTION OF BUILDING ANYTHING THAT, WELL, WE, WE WON'T, THE MARKET WILL PREVENT US FROM BUILDING ANYTHING THAT WE, WE SHOULDN'T BE BUILDING, I THINK, IN MY OPINION, RIGHT? SO AS SOON AS THOUGH, IF THE MARKET CAME BACK AND EVERYBODY STARTED GOING BACK TO WORK, OR THERE WAS A HUGE GROWTH OR SOME OTHER THINGS HAPPENED [00:35:01] THAT, THAT NECESSITATED A, A BUILDING. AND, AND, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE, A LOT OF PEOPLE, A LOT OF CLIENTS RELOCATE, UM, COMPANY, WE RELOCATE COMPANIES DOWN HERE. AND THAT'S PART OF OUR SUCCESS AS A COMPANY IS WE'VE JUST BEEN SITTING DOWN HERE WITH A BIG OLD CATCHERS CATCHING STATE FARM, CATCHING THIS, CATCHING THIS. IT'S, IT'S BEEN, IT'S BEEN FANTASTIC. BUT, BUT NOW EVERYBODY'S, EVERYBODY'S TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE'RE GONNA GET THESE WORKERS BACK IN. AND, AND, AND ONCE THAT GETS SOLVED AND, AND OTHER, AND THE MARKET TIGHTENS UP, THEN FINANCING WILL LOOSEN UP AND WE'LL, WE'LL GET TRANSACTIONS DONE. I GUESS THE QUESTION THAT REMAINS IN MY MIND, IT SORT OF BEGS THIS QUESTION, HOW, UM, HOW LONG CAN YOU RESERVE SOME SPACE FOR THAT DEVELOPMENT WHILE BUILDING RIGHT, THESE, UH, ADDITIONAL APARTMENTS? WELL, WE'RE LIKELY TO START, IF YOU, IF YOU SAW THAT. UH, I, IF HERE, LEMME SEE IF I CAN, WELL, I KNOW, LIKE I CAN, I'M A PRO AT THIS. NO, I'M JUST KIDDING. UH, WE'RE, WE'RE LIKELY TO START DOWN HERE ON, ON, ON THE EAST SIDE, BUT REMEMBER WE'VE GOT A, WE'VE GOT A LARGE, WHAT'S AFFECTIONATELY KNOWN AS THE DOG BARK, ALTHOUGH IT IS NOT A DOG BARK , UH, RIGHT HERE. AND THEN WE HAVE ANOTHER 1.59 ACRE PIECE OF PROPERTY HERE. SO WE HAVE TWO MORE RESIDENTIAL PIECES OVER HERE ON THE WEST SIDE OF PLANO ROAD. AND JUST AS AN, JUST AS A POINT OF INFORMATION, WE HAVE 2000 UNITS APPROVED ON THE WEST SIDE OF PLANO ROAD. WHEN WE DEVELOP THESE TWO FINAL PHASES, WE'LL BE AT 1987 OR SOMETHING, WE'LL BE LIKE 13 UNITS OFF OF THE 2000, OR ABOUT WITHIN ABOUT A PERCENT. JUST TO GIVE YOU KIND OF A, A GAUGE OF, THAT'S WHY THERE'S NO REQUEST ON, ON, ON THE, ON THE WEST SIDE BECAUSE THE WEST SIDE HAS BASICALLY TURNED OUT KIND OF AS PLANNED. UH, BUT, BUT AGAIN, WE, WE WOULD START DOWN HERE AND GO AND GO TOWARDS THE, TOWARDS THE FREEWAY BECAUSE AGAIN, THIS IS WHERE YOU COULD PLOP IN AN OFFICE BUILDING, RIGHT? IS IS ADJACENT TO, TO THE FREEWAY. SO WE'RE GONNA HOLD OUR HOPE FOR THE OFFICE AS WELL, TRUST ME. BUT, BUT, BUT WE NEED TO PROCEED FORWARD WITH THE, WITH THE MULTIFAMILY. AND WE NEED TO HAVE IMPORTANTLY A VIABLE FULL BUILD OUT PLAN THAT SHOWS A PRODUCT TYPE THAT WE'RE ABLE TO BUILD. AND THAT'LL BE A COMBINATION OF, OF, OF MULTIFAMILY AND HOPEFULLY OFFICE BY AND LARGE ADDITIONAL RETAIL. I'VE GOTTA, I GOTTA MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE'S CRYSTAL CLEAR ON THIS. WE NEED THE HEADS AND BEDS FOR THE RETAIL AND LITERALLY 40,000 SQUARE FEET HAS NEVER BEEN OCCUPIED ON STATE STREET. I KNOW IT'S, IT'S A HARD TO BELIEVE THAT, BUT BECAUSE YOU, BECAUSE YOU PROBABLY DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHERE ALL THE HIDDEN SPACE IS. BUT IF YOU, IF YOU GO ON THE EAST SIDE OF, OF PLANO ROAD ON STATE STREET, AND YOU LOOK AT FOUR CITY LINE, THERE'S VIRTUALLY NO, THERE'S NO TENANTS ON UNDER FOUR CITY LINE. THERE'S SOME VACANCIES ACROSS THE STREET. AND THEN AS, AND AS YOU COME ON DOWN ON TWO CITY LINE AT THE CORNER WHERE THE, THE, THE, WHERE THE TALL SPIRAL GOES UP IN THE AIR, ALL THAT SPACE AT THE GROUND FLOOR HAS NEVER BEEN OCCUPIED. IT, IT'S, IT, THERE'S A LOT OF STUFF. ANYWAY, I, I APPRECIATE YOUR CANDOR AND UH, UH, WELL, THANK YOU FOR EXPLAINING IT THAT WAY. OH, YOU'RE WELCOME, MR. ROBERTS. YES. UM, SO IN YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT RETAIL AND ATTRACTING THE TYPES OF RETAIL THAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR, EVERYTHING THAT'S OVER NEAR WHOLE FOODS AND ALL THAT, THAT ATTRACTS THE PUBLIC FROM EVERYWHERE. UM, ARE YOU LOOKING AT, UM, BUILDING IN ANY KIND OF RETAIL THAT WOULD INTO THIS, THIS NEW PORTION YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT DEVELOPING THAT WOULD INCLUDE, UH, THE TYPE OF RETAIL? THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSION EARLIER ABOUT THEATERS OR BOWLING ALLEY, SOMETHING THAT WOULD, UH, ATTRACT THE GENERAL PUBLIC, NOT JUST, UH, CITY LINE RESIDENTS. UH, WE CURRENTLY DON'T HAVE ANY PLANS FOR THAT. AND, AND YEAH, I THINK YOU'VE, YOU'VE OBVIOUSLY READ ABOUT ALAMO GOING BANKRUPT AND GIVING BACK ALL OF ALL OF THEIR DEALS, TOSON AND DOING SOME OTHER DIFFERENT THINGS. AND, AND I'M NOT BLAMING THAT ON, ON THE MARKETPLACE. SOMEONE ASKED WHY WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE, TO, TO THE THEATER. AND I'LL EXPLAIN TO YOU WHAT HAPPENED TO THE THEATER. IT'S, IT'S A LITTLE BIT TECHNICAL. IF YOU GIVE ME TWO MINUTES, I'LL, I'LL BE, I, I, I SWEAR I'LL BE DONE. UM, WHEN WE HAD THE THEATER, THE THEATER WAS GOING RIGHT HERE, RIGHT HERE, NO, WAIT, ACTUALLY RIGHT HERE. SORRY, RIGHT HERE. IT WAS GOING RIGHT HERE. AND THEN THIS IS FOR CITY LINE. FOR CITY LINE IS A REALLY INTERESTING DEVELOPMENT. 'CAUSE THE, THE CITY, THE CITY OF RICHARDSON HAD THE FORESIGHT TO, TO PUT SOME OF THE PARKING IN, IN THE TIF DISTRICT. AND SO THE WHOLE GROUND FLOOR OF FOUR CITY LINE IS COMPLETELY AVAILABLE FOR THE PUBLIC. IT CAN'T EVEN BE USED BY, BY STATE FARM, THE SECOND AND THE THIRD LEVELS ON, ON WEEKS, ON, ON NIGHTS AND ON WEEKENDS, AND CAN BE USED BY THE PUBLIC. SO LITERALLY YOU ALMOST HAVE 400 PARKING SPACES LOCATED RIGHT THERE, RIGHT, RIGHT UNDERNEATH THAT. AND THEN, AND THEN THE THEATER WAS HERE. SO FUNCTIONALLY [00:40:01] IT WORKED, RIGHT? WE COULD, WE COULD ACTUALLY DO THIS. AND THEN WE INADVERTENTLY SOLD THE PROJECT. OKAY? WE, WE SOLD OUR INTEREST IN FOUR CITY LINE. SO NOW WHAT ENDED UP HAPPENING WAS YOU HAD AN OWNERSHIP ENTITY THAT WAS DIFFERENT FOR THE, THE, THE BOWLING ALLEY OR THE, THE, OR THE THEATER THAN IT WAS THE OFFICE BUILDING. AND THE REASON WHY THAT'S IMPORTANT IS BECAUSE NO ONE WILL INVEST IN THE THEATER, RIGHT? WITHOUT THE REQUISITE PARKING. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU GOTTA HAVE THE PARKING, OTHERWISE YOU'RE NOT GONNA INVEST IN THE THEATER. SO YOU COULD, YOU COULD, YOU COULD GET PARKING INTO PERPETUITY UNDER THAT STRUCTURE. BUT IN THE CASE OF A CASUALTY OR CONDEMNATION, MEANING THAT IF THE THING CAUGHT ON FIRE AND, AND, AND, AND, AND IT WAS CONDEMNED OR BURNED TO THE GROUND, THERE, THERE WAS NO WAY TO MAKE THAT OWNER REBUILD THE PARKING THAT THE THEATER NEEDED. AND SO BASICALLY, BECAUSE THE OWNERSHIPS, UH, SEPARATED WHEN WE SOLD THE BUILDING, WE COULDN'T ACTUALLY MAKE THE OWNER OF FOUR CITY LINE RECREATE THOSE SPACES. AND CONSEQUENTLY WE COULDN'T GET THE FINANCING FOR THE THEATER. THANK YOU. I HAVE A QUESTION, MR. ER YES. THE HEADS IN BEDS. WHERE DO THOSE HEADS IN BEDS WORK IN THE AREA? OR DO THEY LIVE THERE AND TAKE THE TRANSIT AND COME BACK AT NIGHT AND EAT DINNER? WELL, UM, I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT SPECIFICALLY. I WOULD, I WOULD GUESS THAT A LOT OF THEM ARE, ARE NOW WORKING FROM HOME. OKAY. OR, OR GOING INTO THE OFFICE ONE OR TWO TIMES A WEEK. UH, AGAIN, THE, THE THE, THE SHEER DROP IN, IN THE, IN THE RIDERSHIP OF DART WOULD, WOULD LEAD YOU TO BELIEVE THAT. AND THAT'S ONLY AT THIS STATION, RIGHT? IT, IT DROPPED, YOU KNOW, DART WIDE, BUT AT THIS STATION IT DROPPED PARTICULARLY. AND THAT'S BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE, THE, THE STATE FARM HAD 11,000, UH, WHAT WE CALL BUTTS AND SEATS, HEADS ON BEDS, BUTTS AND SEATS. WE, WE HAD, UM, WE HAD 11,000 OF THOSE FOLKS THERE. AND MOST OF 'EM, ABOUT 80% OF THEM WERE, WERE CONTACT CENTER EMPLOYEES. THEY PROCESSED YOUR CLAIMS, RIGHT? IF YOU HAD A CLAIM FOR STATE FARM. AND SO THEY COULD DO THAT FROM HOME, RIGHT? THEY DON'T REALLY NEED TO BE THERE, RIGHT. FOR CERTAIN TRAINING EXERCISES. AND THEY STILL COME IN FOR THAT, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THEY CAN WORK FROM HOME AND, AND THAT'S WHAT THEY'VE BEEN DOING. THAT MIGHT BE A LOT LIKE THE TENANCY IN, IN OUR, IN OUR RESIDENTIAL UNITS. SO NOW, IF, IF, IF YOU'RE APPEALING TO PEOPLE TO LIVE THERE, DO THEY WORK FROM HO IN YOUR, IN YOUR, WOULD THEY BE WORKING FROM HOME? WOULD THEY BE JUMPING ON DART? WHO, WHO ARE THE HEADS? WHO ARE THE HEADS AND BEDS? THEY'RE ORIGINALLY GONNA BE IN PEOPLE COMING IN TO WORK AT THE, IN THE AREA. BUT THAT'S, WELL, I THINK IT, I MEAN, I THINK IT COULD BE ANYBODY, RIGHT? THE HEADS AND BEDS JUST MEANS THAT'S WHERE YOUR RESIDENCE IS, RIGHT? AND YOU WAKE UP THERE EVERY DAY. IT, IT, IT, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU WORK THERE, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU COULDN'T WORK SOMEWHERE ELSE. IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU TAKE THE LIGHT RAIL OR DON'T TAKE THE LIGHT RAIL. I MEAN, IT'S JUST A, IT'S A LIFESTYLE. I THINK PEOPLE APPRECIATE BEING AT CITY LINE WHEN THEY'RE THERE ON NIGHTS, WEEKENDS, AND THEN WHERE THEY WORK COULD BE, COULD BE WHERE THEY LIVE, COULD BE SOMEWHERE ELSE. OKAY. OKAY. THANK YOU. ALRIGHT, ANY OTHER COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS? YES, I'VE GOT ONE. IS THERE ANY STRONG CORRELATION WITH FURTHER DECELERATION IN THAT CORPORATE INVESTMENT PART WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE WORLD JUST DECIDES NO MORE OFFICE BUILDINGS THAT WOULD LIKE RUIN THIS PROJECT? NO. HOWEVER, UH, WHAT'S KIND OF THE FIRST THING THAT STARTS IN THIS WHOLE THING OF, OF CASCADING FROM, FROM THE COVID SITUATION IS THAT, IS THAT USERS STOP OCCUPYING THEIR SPACE. NOW, IN THIS CASE, STATE FARMS SIGNED LONG-TERM LEASES, RIGHT? THE 20 YEAR, 25 YEAR LEASES, WHICH ARE NOW SHORTER. BUT, BUT, BUT, BUT, BUT ESSENTIALLY IN ORDER FOR THEM TO RECOUP ANY OF THEIR EXPENSES, THEY'RE GONNA HAVE TO SUBLEASE THAT SPACE. SO THERE'S A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF SUBLEASE SPACE ON THE MARKETPLACE RIGHT NOW. SO, SO, SO AGAIN, THAT'S ANOTHER THING THAT THWARTS NEW DEVELOPMENT IS THE FACT THAT THERE'S A TON OF, OF, OF SUBLEASE SPACE. IF YOU LOOK AT THE RENTAL RATE THAT THEY COULD ACHIEVE IN THERE, IT, IT, IT'S ABOUT, AND I KNOW THIS DOESN'T REALLY COMPUTE, BUT IT'S A LITTLE LESS THAN $30 A SQUARE FOOT GROSS, RIGHT? AND, AND, AND IN ORDER FOR US TO BUILD A NEW OFFICE BUILDING, WE'D HAVE TO BE ALMOST 60%, $60 A SQUARE FOOT NET, RIGHT? SO THERE'S PROBABLY ANOTHER 10, A $10 CHANGE BETWEEN THOSE TWO. SO 70 VERSUS 35, WE LITERALLY WOULD HAVE TO HAVE CHARGE TWICE AS MUCH MONEY AS, AS A SUBLEASE OCCUPANT OF THE STATE FARM BILLING. AND THAT'S, THAT'S, THAT'S THE OTHER THING THAT TROUBLES US ABOUT, UH, THE WAY FORWARD ON THE FINAL BUILD OUT PLAN, THE VIABLE FINAL BUILD OUT PLAN IS, IS WE HAVE TO OVERCOME QUITE A BIT OF DYNAMICS WITHIN THE MARKETPLACE IN ORDER FOR THAT MARKET TO COME BACK. THANK YOU. I DO HAVE ONE [00:45:01] QUESTION, AND MAINLY JUST OUTTA CURIOSITY, UH, 'CAUSE I MEAN, I'M NOT A RESIDENT THAT LIVES UP IN THAT AREA, SO I'M WONDERING WHAT KIND OF DEMOGRAPHIC SPECIFICALLY ARE YOU LOOKING FOR? IS IT, IS IT, UH, YOUNG PROFESSIONALS, IT COUPLES WITH KIDS? IS IT, UH, ARE THESE TWO BEDROOM, THREE BEDROOM, HALF A BEDROOM STUDIO? WHAT, WHAT ARE THEY KINDA LIKE ALL THE, ALL THE ABOVE. ABOUT, ABOUT, ABOUT ABOUT 75% OF THE UNITS ARE ONE BEDROOMS ARE EFFICIENCIES, WHICH ARE, WHICH IS WHAT YOU TALKED ABOUT. YOU, YOU, YOU'LL GET, YOU'LL GET TWO BEDROOM UNITS, RIGHT? WHICH, WHICH ARE MAJORITY OF THE, OF THE REMAINING 25%. AND THEN YOU GET A REALLY SMALL PORTION THAT'S THREE BEDROOMS, RIGHT? I MEAN, JUST BECAUSE THERE'S JUST NOT THAT MANY PEOPLE THAT, THAT, THAT OCCUPY THAT SPACE. AND, UM, AND I THINK IT RUNS THE GAMBIT RELATIVE TO, TO DEMOGRAPHICS. I, I, I MEAN, I THINK PEOPLE THAT, UH, THAT, UH, THAT ARE SINGLE OR LIVING WITH A BUDDY OR NEW, NEW WOOD COUPLE COULD HAVE A SMALL CHILD. YOU KNOW, THERE'S NOT THAT MANY OLDER KIDS RUNNING AROUND CITY LINE JUST BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS HAVE KIND OF GRADUATED TO HOUSES AND, AND WHATNOT AND GOTTEN AWAY FROM THE RENTAL MARKET. BUT, UM, I HOPE I ANSWERED THAT QUESTION. NO, THAT'S FINE. I WAS JUST CURIOUS. THANK YOU. OH, ALRIGHT. ANY OTHERS? YES. WHAT WOULD YOU SAY ABOUT, UH, YOUR MIC, YOUR, UH, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY THE MOST VIBRANT, UH, COMPONENT IS TO TRACK SOMEONE TO THE AREA? WHAT HE ASKED, I'VE ASKED IT ONE WAY HE ASKED ANOTHER WAY. JUST THE MOST VIBRANT THING THAT WE HAVE AT CITY LINE. YES. WHAT WOULD CAUSE ME TO, YOU KNOW, THE, THE, THE GOOD THING ABOUT WHEN YOU'RE CONTRASTING THIS DEVELOPMENT TO LIKE A NORMAL RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT OR A NORMAL MULTI-FAMILY DEVELOPMENT, THIS TRULY HAS A, HAS AN URBAN FEEL TO IT, RIGHT? SO, SO ONE OF THE GOOD THINGS ABOUT CITYLINE IS, IS YOU'RE NOT WAITING FOR THINGS, RIGHT? YOU'VE GOT WHOLE FOODS, YOU'VE GOT CBS, YOU GOT JASPER, YOU GOT BARBECUE PLACE, YOU GOT THIS, YOU GOT A MEXICAN PLACE, YOU GOT TWO OR THREE, YOU KNOW, YOU GOT, YOU GOT ALL KINDS OF THINGS THERE ALREADY WITHIN WALKING DISTANCE. SO IT'S, IT SOLVES THAT WALKABILITY ISSUE. YOU GOT THE LIGHT RAIL, THAT'S ANOTHER HUGE BENEFIT TO TO TO TO THE, TO THE PROPERTY. YOU'VE GOT OPEN SPACE, YOU'VE GOT, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT MUSIC ON FRIDAY NIGHTS. IT'S, THERE'S, THERE ARE THINGS THERE, YOU KNOW, WALK OVER TO, TO WHOLE FOODS. IT, IT'S, THE OTHER THING IS THE NATURE TRAIL, THE NATURE TRAILS. JUST, IT'S ALMOST AN EXPANSION OF OUR OPEN SPACE. YOU HAD PEOPLE WERE ASKING ABOUT OPEN SPACE, WE HAVE CONNECTIVE OPEN SPACE, WE'VE GOT ACTIVE KIND OF PLAZA OPEN SPACE, AND THEN WE HAVE THIS JARGON ASSET TO, TO THE SOUTH OF US, WHICH IS THE NATURE TRAIL. AND THAT TAKES YOU WHERE, AS FAR AS I CAN SEE. SO THANK YOU. ALRIGHT. UH, IF THERE ARE NO OTHER QUESTIONS, THANK YOU. AND, UH, WELL THANK YOU SO MUCH. I APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU. ALRIGHT, SO THIS IS A PUBLIC HEARING. UM, IS THERE ANYONE PRESENT WHO WOULD LIKE TO MAKE COMMENTS? ? YEAH, I THINK HE KNOWS. AND YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS PLEASE. HI, I AM PAUL VOLKER. UH, I LIVE AT 33 0 8 CALLAWAY COURT IN THE PANHANDLE, UM, NEAR CITY LINE. UM, SOME OF YOU MAY KNOW ME AS THE FORMER MAYOR OF THE CITY. UH, I THINK I'VE SAT THROUGH ABOUT EVERY ZONING CASE, UH, RELATIVE TO CITY LINE AND, UH, MANY OF THE OTHER TRANSIT ORIENTED DEVELOPMENTS, UH, IN, IN RICHARDSON. I AM, UH, A BIG FAN OF, UH, OF THE WORK YOU DO AS COMMISSIONERS. I WANNA THANK YOU FOR THAT, SAM AND YOUR TEAM. UH, THE PROFESSIONALISM OF THE CITY OF RICHARDSON STAFF IS JUST PHENOMENAL. WALT MONTFORD AND THE KDC TEAM I'VE KNOWN FOREVER. UM, THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU'VE DONE FOR THE CITY OF RICHARDSON. UM, I AM A BIG FAN OF CITY LINE, UM, BUT I'VE ALSO SET THROUGH EVERY ONE OF THESE MEETINGS, UH, AND VOTED ON ALL OF THEM. UH, I'M A, I'M A BIG BELIEVER IN FORM-BASED ZONING, TRANSIT ORIENTED DEVELOPMENT. I BELIEVE CITYLINE IS LITERALLY THE POSTER CHILD FOR DART IN THE METROPLEX OF WHAT, UH, A DEVELOPMENT SHOULD LOOK LIKE. UM, BUT WHETHER IT'S KDC OR, UM, ANY OF THE OTHER DEVELOPERS THAT I'VE WORKED WITH OVER THE YEARS, I ALWAYS TELL THEM THAT A TRANSIT ORIENTED DEVELOPMENT HAS FOUR. IT'S A FOUR-LEGGED STOOL. THE FIRST IS THE EMPLOYMENT. AND AS YOU KNOW, WALT WAS DISCUSSING, IT'S A CHALLENGING TIME, ESPECIALLY WHEN, UH, AN AREA LIKE CITYLINE IS SO DOMINATED BY ONE EMPLOYER THAT, THAT THAT HAS, UH, DOWNSIZED AND IT'S A HEADCOUNT IN THAT AREA. SO WE DO NEED TO FIND MORE EMPLOYMENT, UH, IN, IN CITY LINE. UM, THERE'S RETAIL AND, UH, I SAT WITH TRANSWESTERN WHEN THAT THE MOVIE THEATER WAS BEING DISCUSSED. AND, AND I DON'T EVEN [00:50:01] WANT TO GET INTO THE UGLY DETAILS OF THAT, BUT, UH, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. UM, AND, UH, FOR LOTS OF REASONS. UM, BUT I THINK IT TAKES MORE THAN JUST HEADS ON BEDS TO DRIVE THE RETAIL EXPERIENCE THAT WE'RE, WE'RE LOOKING FOR. UM, AND I AM SAD TO SEE SO MUCH OF WHAT IS LEFT IN CITY LINE POTENTIALLY SHIFT TO MORE APARTMENTS, ESPECIALLY APARTMENTS THAT ARE, UH, YOUR CLASSIC TEXAS WRAP. UH, THERE ARE FIVE STORIES, STICK-BUILT APARTMENTS. SO WE'LL HAVE TONS OF APARTMENTS ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF RICHARDSON AND TONS OF APARTMENTS ON THE NORTH SIDE OF RICHARDSON. UM, MAYBE IT'S A PROBLEM WE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT FOR 40 OR 50 YEARS, BUT JUST LIKE WE'RE DEALING WITH THE SOUTH SIDE OF RICHARDSON IN 40 OR 50 YEARS, WE'LL HAVE TO DO THAT. THERE IS A NICE MIX IN CITY LINE THOUGH, THE SINGLE FAMILY HOMES, THE TOWN HOMES, THE APARTMENTS. BUT THERE'S A COUPLE OPTIONS THAT ARE MISSING. AND I'D REALLY LIKE KATY C TO LOOK AT THOSE SERIOUSLY FOR THIS EXPANSION. THAT IS THAT, UM, LIVE WORK IS A BIG OPPORTUNITY RIGHT NOW. SO WHETHER THAT DENSITY IS LOWER OR HIGHER MIGHT BE BECAUSE OF WHAT'S DOWNSTAIRS. IT MAY NOT BE A RESTAURANT OR GOD FORBID, A NAIL SALON. IT MIGHT BE THAT GALLERY OR THAT WORK ENVIRONMENT FOR A TECHNOLOGY, UH, GROUP. SO THAT'S, THAT'S THE LIVE WORK OPTION. THERE'S SOMETHING THAT THIS CITY NEEDS THAT WE JUST HAVEN'T REALLY BEEN ABLE TO PULL OFF. AND, UH, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THAT HAPPEN HERE. AND THAT IS A MULTI-STORY, CONDOMINIUM OR APARTMENT COMPLEX, NOT STICK-BUILT, BUT CONCRETE AND I, AND, AND, UH, REBARB, I KNOW IT'S MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE, BUT I THINK GIVEN THE, UH, THE CITY LINE, UH, NIGHTLIGHT, THE, THE, THE, THE LANDSCAPE, EVERYTHING THAT'S THERE, WHAT, WHAT ATTRACTS PEOPLE TO BE PART OF THAT URBAN EXPERIENCE IS A HIGH RISE ENVIRONMENT. SO IF WE COULD LOOK AT THAT FOR RESIDENTIAL, I THINK THAT WOULD BE NICE. IT'S PART OF WHAT I BELIEVE IS THE MAGIC OF FORM-BASED ZONING. IF YOU PUT A BUILDING IN TODAY, MAYBE IT'S AN OFFICE BUILDING, MAYBE MAYBE BUILDING FOUR OF THE NEW OWNERS AT STATE FARM COULD LOOK AT THAT, NOT JUST SUBLEASING OFFICE, BUT TURN IT INTO A CONDOMINIUM, MAKE IT, THOSE BUILDINGS WERE BUILT WITH THE TYPES OF, UH, OF, UH, OF PARKING AND UH, AND, UH, ELEVATORS AND ALL THE THINGS NECESSARY TO MAKE IT AS FLEXIBLE AS POSSIBLE. AND IN FORM-BASED ZONING, WHAT YOU WANT ARE PRODUCTS THAT ARE GONNA LIVE A HUNDRED, 125 YEARS AND THEY MAY START AS AN OFFICE, THEN THEY MAY MOVE TO A CONDOMINIUM OR RETAIL OR AN APARTMENT COMPLEX. BUT YOU HAVE THAT FLEXIBILITY AND THAT'S WHAT FORM-BASED ZONING WORKING WITH WHAT THE MARKET CONDITIONS ARE REALLY ALLOWS FOR THE FOURTH LEG OF THE STOOL. AND IT'S ONE THAT I'VE DEALT WITH ALL THE TIME WITH THESE DEVELOPERS OVER THE YEARS, AND THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT. IT'S BEYOND RETAIL. AND UNLESS THERE'S A REASON TO GO TO CITY LINE, UH, AND STAY THERE AFTER SEVEN O'CLOCK AT NIGHT, WE'RE ALWAYS GONNA HAVE A CHALLENGE OPENING UP THE LEASE SPACE FOR RETAIL. AND SO THE MOVIE THEATER WAS IMPORTANT. A BOWLING ALLEY MIGHT BE BE IMPORTANT. WE'VE GOT TO FIND SOME ENTERTAINMENT THAT'S GOING TO CAUSE THAT ACTIVITY LEVEL TO, TO BE THERE. THE PARKS ARE NICE, THE MARKETPLACE AND THE OPEN PARKS AND STUFF ARE NICE, BUT WE NEED, WE NEED SOME SERIOUS ENTERTAINMENT OPTIONS. SO LET'S LOOK FOR LIVE WORK OR CONDOMINIUMS OR, OR CONCRETE BASED APARTMENTS. LET'S LOOK FOR ADDITIONAL RETAIL AND ENTERTAINMENT ESPECIALLY. AND, UH, AND, AND LET'S, LET'S HOPE, AND LET'S HOPE THE CITY AND THE LANDOWNERS AND THE DEVELOPERS MAYBE CAN SHOW SOME PATIENCE ON THIS OFFICE ENVIRONMENT COMING BACK. AND, UH, I I, I JUST HATE SEEING A BUNCH, JUST FIVE MORE TEXAS WRAPS THROWN IN CITY LINE JUST BECAUSE WE CAN. AND THAT'S THE ONLY THING THAT'S GETTING FINANCED RIGHT NOW. UH, THANK YOU. THANK YOU. UM, MR. MUMFORD, WOULD YOU LIKE TO, UM, MAKE ANY FURTHER COMMENTS? YOU NO, I DON'T, I THINK I, I THINK I, ALRIGHT, WELL, UH, MAYBE WE GARY MARK , WELL THAT MAY BE OUTSIDE OUR PARTICULAR, UH, FUNCTION. , UM, I WOULD LOOK FOR A, A MOTION TO CLOSE THE [00:55:01] PUBLIC HEARING MR. PURDY MOTION TO CLOSE THE PUBLIC HEARING. THANK YOU. AND I SECOND THANK YOU. AND, UH, UH, OH, I'M SORRY MR. PURDY, UH, SINCE YOU'RE NOT VOTING ON THIS, UH, MAY OH, YOU, YOU ARE VOTING ON THIS. I'M SORRY. YOU ARE PROPER THERE. OKAY. UM, SO, UH, ALL IN FAVOR OF CLOSING THE HEARING OPPOSED? OKAY. THAT PASSES. UM, ANY COMMENTS ANY OF THE COMMISSIONERS WOULD LIKE TO MAKE BEFORE, UH, CONSIDERING A MOTION? MR. BEACH? MR. CHAIRMAN, I MOVE, WE, UH, ACCEPT THIS ZONING CASE AS PRESENTED. ALRIGHT. WE HAVE A, A MOTION TO, UH, APPROVE AS PRESENTED OR RECOMMEND APPROVAL AS PRESENTED. WE HAVE A SECOND. I KIND OF WANTED TO ACTUALLY DISCUSS IT A LITTLE BIT. I THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE ALRIGHT. LET'S, I'M SORRY. WE MIGHT HAVE JUMPED THE GUN. OKAY. UH, SO I GUESS THE QUESTION IS, TO ME, THE ONLY REAL THOUGHTS I HAVE IS KIND OF WHAT ARE THE LIMITATIONS THAT WE ARE APPLYING TO THIS IN THE FUTURE BY ACCEPTING THIS NOW, RIGHT? SO IN NO SCENARIO IS THE RETAIL OR IS THE, THE MULTI OR THE LAND EXHAUSTING, RIGHT? SO THERE'S, THERE'S LAND THAT'S GONNA BE USED HERE AND THERE'S OPPORTUNITIES FOR OTHER THINGS TO HAPPEN. WE JUST, UM, BECAUSE OF THE CURRENT ECONOMIC CLIMATE, WE DON'T HAVE A LOT OF ABILITY TO KIND OF NAIL THAT DOWN. IT'S NOT FORESEEABLE. UM, SO THAT, THAT'S GOOD AND BAD, YOU KNOW, I GUESS. UM, AND THAT'S JUST THAT THOSE ARE MY THOUGHTS. LIKE, YEAH, OKAY, THIS, THIS, UM, IS SOMETHING WE CAN DO RIGHT NOW. UM, BUT IT, IT DOESN'T CONTROL WHAT'S FORESEEABLE IN THE FUTURE, BUT WHAT IS FORESEEABLE IN THE FUTURE? I DON'T KNOW. ANY OTHER COMMENTS? WELL, FROM, FROM MY HUMBLE PERSPECTIVE AND I'M, I'M NOT A BIG GUY FOR A LOT OF DENSE DEER, THAT KIND OF STUFF. I DIDN'T GROW UP IN URBAN, SO IT'S ALIEN TO ME TO A CERTAIN DEGREE. BUT THIS LOOKS, TO ME, THIS PARTICULAR PRESENTATION LOOKS TO ME LIKE MAYBE NOT IDEAL, BUT IT LOOKS LIKE AN OPPORTUNITY TO KEEP THIS VIABLE AND TO KEEP THE RETAIL AND COMMERCIAL ASPECTS, UH, CAPABLE AND PRODUCING. AND LORD KNOWS THERE'S GONNA BE MORE PEOPLE COMING. SO, UH, IN THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE, I THINK IT'S PROBABLY A REASONABLE APPROACH. AND LIKE YOU SAY, THERE'S STILL, UH, OTHER LAND UP THERE THAT IS MARKET SITUATIONS CHANGE WHY OTHER THINGS CAN BE DONE. SO THAT'D BE MY COMMENTS. THANK YOU MR. ICK. YEAH, I THINK JUST PIGGYBACKING ON, YOU KNOW, WHAT PAUL WAS SAYING, I WAS HAVING THOSE SAME THOUGHTS ABOUT IS THERE MORE WE COULD DO MORE DIFFERENT TYPES OF RETAIL, DIFFERENT, NOT, NOT JUST APARTMENTS AT THIS TIME, BUT MORE ENTERTAINMENT, MORE, I MEAN, I KNOW IT'S NOT WATERS CREEK, BUT , I LIVE OVER HERE. I, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE MORE, UM, MORE OPPORTUNITY. I MEAN NOT JUST RESTAURANTS, BUT MORE SHOPS, MORE, YOU KNOW, MORE ANYTHING. I DON'T KNOW THAT, THAT THAT'S APPROPRIATE FOR THE AREA. YOU KNOW, WE HAVEN'T DONE A STUDY ON THAT, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE CITY CONSIDERS MORE THAN JUST APARTMENTS. I LOVE APARTMENTS, BUT I LIKE THE IDEA OF CONDOS OR, OR, YOU KNOW, OTHER, OTHER MEANS OF BRINGING PEOPLE HERE AND BRINGING PEOPLE TO CITYLINE. ALRIGHT. AND THE MARKETPLACE OVER THERE. ANYONE ELSE? , I DON'T KNOW HOW TO PUT THAT IN . LIKE HOW DO WE, HOW DO WE BRING THAT TO, YOU KNOW, TO THE FOREFRONT WITH, WITH THE CITY TO CONSIDER OTHER IDEAS? WELL, UM, 'CAUSE WE'VE GOT IT. I MEAN, THIS IS GREAT, RIGHT? OKAY. SO WHAT THEY'RE REQUESTING IS JUST AN INCREASE OF RESIDENTIAL UNITS AND THERE'S A LIST OF RESIDENTIAL UNITS IN YOUR, IN YOUR STAFF REPORT. BUT THERE ARE ALSO OTHER ALLOWED USES THAT THE MARKET AT THIS POINT OR, OR PREVIOUSLY COULDN'T SUPPORT. THEREFORE IT'S NOT THERE. SO THE, THE THE, THE SINGLE TIME THAT WE HAD SOME SORT OF ENTERTAINMENT VENUE, WE FOUND OUT WHAT HAPPENED. RIGHT? BUT THE CODE ITSELF ALLOWS MULTIPLE TYPES OF USES. IT ALLOWS CONDOS. IT DOESN'T ALLOW [01:00:01] SINGLE FAMILY AND IT DOESN'T ALLOW TOWN HOMES, BUT IT ALLOWS RESIDENTIAL USES, LIVE, WORK, UH, LOFT APARTMENTS, WHICH COULD BE, YOU KNOW, ONCE WE LOOK AT AT THEM, IT, IT COULD BE A CONDO AS A LOFT APARTMENT. UH, IT ALLOWS MULTIFAMILY, UH, IT ALLOWS GROUND FLOOR RETAIL AND IT ALLOWS OTHER COMMERCIAL AND RETAIL USES. UM, BUT AGAIN, YOU NEED THOSE PEOPLE IN ORDER TO SUPPORT THOSE USES. AND IT'S NOT THAT WE ARE, WE AS A CITY OR THE CODE PROHIBITS IT 'CAUSE IT ALLOWS IT, IT'S JUST THE MARKET MAY NOT BE THERE. YES. AND, AND SAM CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, AND THIS IS ALWAYS THE TRICKY PART TO ME, THE TRICKY PART'S, THE ALTERNATIVE. AND SOMETIMES YOU, YOU WANT SOMETHING, BUT YOU CAN'T REALLY GET THAT FROM HERE. SO ESSENTIALLY IF WE SAY, NO, WE'RE NOT DOING THIS, THEY CAN STILL BUILD UNITS THERE, THEY CAN STILL USE THAT LAND TO DO THAT. THEY WOULD HAVE SOME LIMITATIONS AS TO THE NUMBER OF UNITS, BUT IT WOULD PROBABLY BE LESS GOOD, LESS WELL FINANCED BECAUSE OF A VARIETY OF FACTORS THAT THE APPLICANT'S TALKED ABOUT. UM, SO THERE, THERE'S NOT REALLY, WE CAN'T JUST SAY, HEY, GO BUILD A MOVIE THEATER. THAT'S NOT HOW THIS WORKS FOR, FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS THAT WE'RE ALL GRATEFUL FOR. UM, OUR WHIMS ARE NOT, ARE NOT WHAT THE DEVELOPERS HAVE TO DO. UM, SO YEAH, I THINK THAT, SO THAT'S ALWAYS HOW I LIKE TO THINK ABOUT LIKE, OKAY, IF WE DON'T DO THIS, WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN? UM, IT'S, IT'S JUST LIKE THE WHOLE WAREHOUSE REQUEST. WE ALWAYS GET WHILE WE NEED, YOU KNOW, 30 FEET AND WE CAN ONLY GET 20 BECAUSE OF OLD CODE, AND YOU'RE LIKE, OKAY, SO YOU'RE GONNA BUILD A 20 FOOT WAREHOUSE, WHICH IT'S GONNA BE LESS GOOD THAN 25 FOOT WAREHOUSE AND, AND YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO REASON TO REALLY DENY THAT TYPICALLY. UM, SO THAT'S KIND OF HOW I FEEL ABOUT IT. UM, WITH, WITH, WITH THAT ADDITIONAL INPUT, I FEEL LIKE THAT'S KIND OF ALTERNATIVE MR. KELLER. SO JOE, TO YOUR POINT, UM, I, I MEAN I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE? UM, AND ARE THEY STILL ENTITLED TO, TO BUILD THE APARTMENTS? YES, THEY ARE. RIGHT? I MEAN WE, WE SAW, UH, THAT THEY'VE, THEY'VE GOT THE ABILITY TO, TO BUILD THOSE NOW, BUT I, I GUESS WHERE, WHAT I QUESTION WHEN I THINK ABOUT IT IS WILL THEY BUILD THEM IF THE STANDARDS AREN'T CHANGED? UM, AND I CERTAINLY THINK THAT IT HAS TO BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION. UM, YOU KNOW, WHERE THE MARKET STANDS AND YOU KNOW, WHAT THE DEVELOPERS DECIDE TO DO, UM, IN LIGHT OF THE SITUATION THAT THEY'RE IN. BUT I THINK THAT THE DECISION THAT WE NEED TO MAKE IS DO WE MODIFY THE STANDARD TO ALLOW, UH, FOR THEM TO BUILD, UH, YOU KNOW, THE APARTMENTS THAT THEY NEED TO BUILD, UH, IN ORDER FOR, TO MAKE THIS SOMETHING THAT IS ECONOMICALLY VIABLE FOR THEM AT THE COST OF POTENTIALLY LOSING SOMETHING IN THE FUTURE WHEN THE MARKET DOES CHANGE. UM, AND FRANKLY, I'M NOT CONVINCED THAT MORE HEADS AND BEDS MEANS THAT THIS AREA THRIVES. UM, AS THE APPLICANT STATED, THERE'S A LARGE PORTION OF THE RETAIL AREA THAT'S THERE THAT IS CURRENTLY UNOCCUPIED. UM, AND YOU KNOW, THERE, THERE IS A FAIR AMOUNT OF, UM, RESIDENTIAL APARTMENTS IN THAT AREA ALREADY. UM, AND I DON'T KNOW, I MEAN, I, I KIND OF GO BACK TO SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN DISCUSSED, WHICH THE ENTERTAINMENT ASPECT, WHICH OF COURSE AS YOU SAID, YOU KNOW, WE, WE DON'T HAVE THE, UH, THE AUTHORITY OR, OR THE ABILITY TO MAKE A DEVELOPER, UM, YOU KNOW, CHOOSE TO, TO DO THAT OR, YOU KNOW, THE MARKET FOR THAT MATTER. UM, IT'S EITHER GOING TO WORK AND THE DEVELOPER WILL DO SOMETHING THAT MAKES SENSE AND, UM, WORKS FOR THE MARKET OR, OR WON'T. UM, BUT AGAIN, I GO BACK TO THE TRADE OFF. IS IT, DO WE WANT TO JUST SAY, WELL THIS IS WHERE THE MARKET IS TODAY AND THE ONLY THING THAT'S GOING TO WORK TODAY IS APARTMENTS, UM, OF WHICH ARE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE, ARE FAIRLY HIGH DENSITY, UM, AND, AND I GUESS LOSE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR DOING SOMETHING ELSE IN THE FUTURE. SO THAT'S WHAT I'M THINKING ON IT. ALRIGHT. ANY OTHER THOUGHTS OR COMMENTS, MR. BEACH? MR. CHAIRMAN, ONCE AGAIN, I MOVE THAT WE ACCEPT THIS ZONING CASE AS PRESENTED THAT WE, UH, RECOMMEND ACCEPTANCE. YES, SIR. ALRIGHT. WE HAVE A MOTION THAT'S BEEN MADE. I SECOND THE MOTION. OKAY. WE HAVE A MOTION AND A SECOND. UM, ANY OTHER DISCUSSION BEFORE A VOTE? ALRIGHT, [01:05:01] UH, I'LL ASK FOR ALL THOSE IN FAVOR TO, UH, RAISE YOUR HANDS AND ALL THOSE OPPOSED. ALRIGHT. THE, UH, THE MOTION DID NOT CARRY. UM, SO THE MOTION FAILED. THE MOTION FAILED. UH, DO WE HAVE, UH, UM, ANY FURTHER ACTION WE CAN TAKE? YOU COULD, UM, YOU COULD SEEK A DIFFERENT MOTION, UH, OR YOU COULD ACCEPT THAT THE MOTION TO RECOMMEND APPROVAL FAIL AND THEREFORE THE CASE WAS DENIED. ALRIGHT. UM, WOULD IT BE, COULD WE ASK IF THE APPLICANT WOULD LIKE A CONTINUANCE WITHOUT, THAT'S, THAT'S ANOTHER GOOD QUESTION. I'M SORRY. WITHOUT PREJUDICE? YES. I MEAN, HE CAN BRING AND THEN, AND THEN HE CAN, AND THEN, AND THEN HE CAN RESUBMIT WITHOUT, UH, HAVING, UH, A TIMEFRAME. CORRECT. OKAY. UM, THERE WAS NO MENTION OF PREJUDICE IN THE MOTION. SO IS IT, IS IT UNDERSTOOD THAT IT IS WITH PREJUDICE? IT'S WITH PREJUDICE. OKAY. UM, WOULD ANYONE LIKE TO PROPOSE A DIFFERENT MOTION AND DO YOU AMEND THE, AMEND THE MOTION WELL, OR AN AMENDMENT? GOOD QUESTION. THANK YOU. WOULD ANYONE LIKE TO, TO, UH, RECOMMEND THAT I MOVE THAT WE, UH, GO THROUGH THIS AGAIN WITHOUT PREJUDICE? . OKAY. SO RECOMMEND, UH, APPROVAL. RECOMMEND APPROVAL WITHOUT PREJUDICE IF IT PREJUDICE WITHOUT PREJUDICE IF IT FAILS. OKAY. THAT'S STRANGE WORDING, BUT I'LL TAKE IT. IS THERE A SECOND? I'LL SECOND. OKAY, MS. BONAC SECOND. UM, SO WE HAVE A MOTION TO RECOMMEND APPROVAL WITHOUT PREJUDICE. IF IT DOES NOT PASS, UM, I'LL ASK FOR A VOTE. UH, FOR THOSE WHO APPROVE OF THE MOTION, PROBABLY JUST PASS APPROVE OF THE, THE MOTION AS RESTATED. OKAY. , IF YOU WANT, JUST LET'S MAKE SURE WE KNOW WHAT WE'RE VOTING ON. THE, THE MOTION IS TO RECOMMEND APPROVAL, BUT WITHOUT PREJUDICE IF IT FAILS. YES. OKAY. ALL THOSE IN FAVOR OF THAT MOTION TO APPROVE. TO APPROVE. OKAY. AND THOSE OPPOSED, SO THE MOTION FAILS, UM, BY THE SAME VOTE OF THREE TO FOUR, BUT IMPORTANTLY WITHOUT PREJUDICE? THAT'S CORRECT. ALRIGHT. UM, IF WE HAVE NO FURTHER BUSINESS, I'LL CLOSE THE MEETING. THANK YOU. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.